Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski

Welcome to Syntax.

Today, we have doctor Courtney Tolinski on. Scott, can you introduce doctor Courtney Telinski?

Yes.

Joining me in studio is my esteemed lovely wife, doctor Tolinski. Scott, do you wanna give, like, a little bit of a a background on who you are and, you know, what you're doing? I'm a licensed clinical and educational psychologist

and work mostly with kids, but I've been on here a few times, and I'm always happy to share my knowledge and thoughts with you all.

Yeah. It's always, great to have Courtney on because, I mean, she's even selling herself short here. She's a a doctor of psychology. Right? So your education is say that? No. But I'm saying, like, you're not you're not just, like, just working with kids or whatever. No. You have, you know, Deno expertise, and, it's always great to be able to bring someone on to talk about things that, honestly, Wes and I are not equipped to handle.

I'll just say that. So we have some questions from the audience.

We're gonna read them all anonymously.

So if you submitted them, the the questions will be anonymous. And we're just gonna kinda dig into this almost like a a potluck episode and just talk through some mental health questions, get Courtney's, feedback and ideas, and, utilize her expertise here. This is really funny. I have never recorded with another person at this desk like this, so forgive us if we're, like, shuffling around around here. Yeah. Courtney said she's not gonna shuffle, but I I feel like I'm gonna shuffle. Oh, that's great. Alright. Should we should we just get into the first question then? Let's get into it.

Alright. The doctor is in. You submitted the questions, and doctor Tolinski is gonna provide the answers.

First one is about supporting neurodivergent team members. So as a manager of two neurodivergent devs, autism and ADHD, I find myself spending a lot of time helping them manage stress, communications, and misunderstandings with other teams. They're amazing at their job, but high touch.

What tips do you have to better support them while still being fair to the rest of the team? Yeah. So this is a good Wes. And I would imagine that pretty much everyone is working with someone who is neurodiverse, and maybe it's just not apparent to you, but, you know, it's about ten percent of the population, roughly speaking. So, chances are one in ten people is neurodiverse.

Right? And one of the things that I think is really important to understand is that neurodiversity is often on a spectrum. Right? We talk about, like, autism being on a spectrum, and I think everyone's really, like, comfortable and familiar with that. But ADHD is kind of also on a spectrum too in terms of, like, its severity and how it shows up.

And it's important to consider that not everyone with autism or ADHD is the same. Right? They're still unique people with, unique strengths and challenges,

but it's on a spectrum. I I guess it it took me a long time to understand my ADHD.

Right? Yeah. But even seeing how it presents in in different people that I know or have been around, like, I don't think most people experience it the way that I do or so for me, that makes sense. And I never considered that. I always like, growing up, I always thought it was like a switch. You got it or you you don't.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think a lot of people understand that. They think, oh, everyone with ADHD is hyperactive, and they can't control themselves. But it's just not true. Right? Some people with ADHD have the inattentive type where they struggle more with organization and which we'll talk about executive functioning skills or time management.

And it's not obvious on the surface or, like, just looking at them. But as you work with them, you see, like, oh, this person needs, like, a lot more structure and support than other people.

Right? So that might be someone that's struggling, or neurodiverse.

So so how do you support,

those those people at work? Yeah. So structure, I guess. The biggest thing, is to provide structure, right, as much as possible.

So if you're giving, like, a big project that has, like, a ton of deadlines, maybe you're shortening those. So you're giving, like, really explicit instructions.

If you're emailing them requests, the emails are not, like, paragraphs long. Right? They're, like, to the point, couple of sentences.

Not a lot of, like,

not a lot of laughing because I literally have on my website, if you're gonna contact me, please give me bullet points of very clear things that you want from me because I'm not gonna read this huge book. So sorry. Go ahead.

Yeah. Right. Right. And I I think a lot of people respond to that anyway. Like, if it needs to be more than a couple of sentences, it's probably worth having a conversation and not sending it over email. Right? So keeping that in mind for everyone. But, yeah, just breaking things down, having like, if, again, if there are deadlines and this person has a hard time meeting their deadlines, maybe having a conversation, you know, pushing their deadlines up a little bit. But I think the big thing is talking to them and seeing, you know, what works best for them. Because people usually Node, like, by the time you're an adult, you have enough, like, lived experience to understand what's helpful for you and what's not. And let's not just assume, like, because they are neurodiverse that they need support. They might not. Like, a lot of intelligent people who are neurodiverse find workarounds and strategies that help them.

But having a conversation and asking, you know, what types of feedback do you respond to the best? What types of mentors or leaders do you respect the most? Like, what's been most helpful for you in your previous jobs? What would you like to see from me? You Node, asking those questions and being open and honest, I think, can have you both be, like, at the same, communication level and have, like, a better understanding of each other.

The other thing that I really like is having if you are, like, the boss of a team, having open office hours if you can. So just having, like, a dedicated time on your calendar where you're available, whether that's virtual or in person.

And so maybe it's, like, an hour every week on Thursday.

I'm available if you wanna book time and talk to me and let them Node, like, hey. If you're struggling or you wanna have, like, a one on one, like, use this time and book it. You know? So I think being available, letting your team know that you care, and having, like, those open and honest conversations about what would be helpful for them is usually best.

As someone who, being you, as somebody who regularly manages somebody with ADHD, being me, what are some things that you've, like, put in place in our relationship and marriage, I guess, that, like, you've found helped me in my my issues.

Well, the this is tough. And and I totally empathize with whoever wrote this question, whoever is, you know, managing other people, you know, who have neurodiversity because I I do understand it is a lot more work, but there's also a lot of pluses with it too. So when you are neurodiverse, you tend to be more creative because your brain is not following the common pathways or, like, roads, so to speak, that most people are. Right? So because your brain is following different pathways, and I'm being, like, really, like, simplistic here, it lends itself to creativity. Right? And that's probably why there's so many people who are neurodiverse in, like, engineering and, you know, tech, etcetera.

But it is it's very tough because when you have like, we'll just take ADHD.

And most people with autism end up having ADHD too. You're not interested, like, generally speaking, in time management.

And if there's, like, a task that you really don't wanna do, it's really hard to motivate yourself or to, like, get it done in a timely manner. Right? There's, like, that avoidance of tasks that are, like, not engaging or just seem like too much. And we have a son who has ADHD as well. So, you know, I I understand this on, like, many different levels, but it's really hard. And you can see just, like, at an eight year old level, like, how hard it is to, like, do tasks, like clean your room. Like, he doesn't wanna do that. I mean, what what kids do, though, but sure. But still, like, it is different. It is different with him than Right. It's like a big meltdown and, like, oh my gosh. This is the end of the world. Like Yeah. It's the biggest deal ever. It's not a bummer. It is a catastrophe. It's like pick up 10 things on the floor. Yeah. Like, this is what we're talking about here. But to him, it's like a mountain. Right? Because he doesn't wanna do it, and it just seems difficult. You know? So that's why you have to, like, really break tasks down. For you, I just stay on top of our deadline. So I tell people, like, you need to email me. Like, don't email him because he's busy. Emails sometimes get lost. Yeah. Things get lost. I think the worst things for me are scheduling.

Yeah. Scheduling and deadlines. Yeah. Those are the in in holidays. I don't know. I'm not gonna Holiday? Wes, that's a different issue. No. It's not it's not it's not actually, like, doing things for holidays. I'm good at that, but, like, knowing what day they are. I'm asking, like, 800 times. Yeah. So but that goes along with the planning and events. I don't know Node yeah. I don't know Wes anything JS. And I I super rely on our calendar, which we've we've had to do pretty intensely.

Yeah.

Me too. Like like, the my wife would just be like, yeah. It's every Tuesday, you have ballet. And I was like, I would never remember that until it's in the calendar. You know? Like, I need the system to to see it because I there's no chance I'm gonna ever remember that without looking. I look at the calendar every single day. I have it on my watch. Sometimes you can probably see it when sometimes when we're recording. If people have paused and zoomed in, to my watch sometimes, but it'll show exactly what's what's coming up next.

Yeah. So if if someone is, like, chronically unreliable with that, like, maybe stepping in and taking over that responsibility or just finding tools that can help them, and you could probably speak better. Like, what tools do you use for work performance? Yeah. Mostly, I I live and die by,

my to do list, which I I have to be completely on. Everything I do goes in that list, and I check it off. And I I it's like the number one tool I use. I use tweak.so.

We've talked about on the show numerous times. And then, for doing tasks, I need my inbox and my email to be clean at all times. And everything that is in my inbox is something that I have to do. It is essentially another to do for me. Otherwise, if stuff just stays in there, I never do it. So I'll use snoozing.

So that way, like, the email goes away and then comes back on a specific date when I it's like, I know that I can handle it or whatever. Because that's the one thing I hate about, text messages. I have a friend I'm working with who insists on text messaging me all of the to dos and all this stuff. And I've said, please email, man, because in text message land, they go into the thing, I see it, and then I forget about it. It's gone. It's out of my brain. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why they haven't invented that, the reminder for the text. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. The snooze it later. That would be would be kinda nice. I don't need another system, though. That's that's the thing JS having the system in place is nice. I I use things as a to do app as well, and I'll often

just dump everything that needs to be done in there. And then I'll sort of bubble them up and down, like, reorder them based on, like, excitement and energy is really important, but also how much something is, like, making me anxious.

Because I often find if I put that, like, the anxious thing at the first thing, you do that, and you go, that only took three minutes. Why have I been putting this off for for three weeks? And then you get the get the momentum and the ball rolling and everything is a little bit better.

Yeah. Yeah. It's often the anticipation of the thing you don't wanna do. Right? The anticipation and then the putting it off. And and I like the concept. I think we've talked about this here of the eat that frog. Yeah. Just like you're saying, do the biggest or least preferred thing first. Just get it over with.

I like that. So tips are systems in place, communicate, let them know, you know, that you're available, office hours, those types of things, but, let them know that you're willing to work within however works best for them and, set up systems. Right? Yeah. Cool. Alright.

Next question.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. Should I tell my employer? What if they don't understand or still carry a stigma? I had no idea. I I have no idea. When I read this, being, like, a manager, I have no idea what the answer to this Wes. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh. Yep. I I was thinking that. And and, like, maybe I'll add on to this as well is, like, if you have a coworker,

you can't just be like, hey. You got autism? Like, that's not something new. You just go and ask. Like, how do you navigate that?

Yeah. So, you know, obviously, you don't need to tell your employer. You know, there's lots of, like, legal regulations around this. Right? But you don't you're not required to tell your employer that you have any type of, like, neurodiverse learning profile or disability.

Right? If you feel like like you have a close relationship with your boss or your employer and you want to disclose that because you feel like that information would be helpful for them and they can, like, respond to it, respect it, and work with you in, like, a collaborative and empathetic way, then I think maybe, you know, telling them could be okay if you feel, like, the need to do that, for those reasons. But you certainly don't have to. And and what I like to do is just talk about, you know, your strengths and challenges just kind of globally. Right? Because everyone has strengths and challenges. You Node? I don't have ADHD, but I have things that are harder for me. Right? And it could be helpful for an employer to know those things, you know, but I don't necessarily have to put a label on it. I think the label is more for you to understand and to give you, like, identity and support, and an explanation JS well as to give you access to, like, resources like, medication and therapy and things like that. Right? The label's helpful for those tools.

It can be helpful for other people to know, but it's not a requirement. I think it's, like, a very personal thing. So what you could say is, you know, if you're having trouble with time time management and organization, you could say, like, I'm really creative, and I'm really great at, like, going deep on things that I'm really passionate about, but it's much harder for me to stay on task or to meet my deadlines. You know? So just talking about your strengths and challenges in more of, like, a global way rather than, like, I have ADHD, and I can't focus. Mhmm. Right? Because that only it frames it in a positive light, but it also gives, like, direct tools and support to help your employer understand you rather than I have this thing.

Right? Yeah. That I it's funny. As a as a manager and somebody with ADHD, I would say, like, it would be helpful for me to Node. But in the same regard, I wouldn't expect everybody to feel

comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. But you also have a small team. I have a small team. Right? And you're very close with your employees.

You understand ADHD. Right. I'm sure there's a lot of managers are being like, so you're just you're taking speed all day? Like, yeah. Right.

You know? Just just put your head down and do the work. You know? I guarantee there's just as many managers that think that way. So I agree with with Courtney. It was just, like, talking about how you work best is is probably most important.

Yeah. And if you suspect that, like, a teammate has a it has ASD or ADHD, I would not call them out on that. Right? But you can talk about it in that same framework. Like, hey, man. I've noticed, like, you're you love to talk about things that you're really interested in or you have such deep knowledge about CSS.

And I don't Node. If you're trying to give constructive feedback, then maybe you know? But it's harder for you in, like, team meetings to talk about things that are going wrong or whatever. Like, if you're trying to go that approach, but use that same type of framework rather than, like, are you autistic? Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't know, like, how people feel about it. Do they even know that they're on the spectrum or they are neurodiverse? And then there's so many different ways that people if they do have autism, that they own that or speak about it. So it is it's such a spectrum in that regard too, and it's probably safest and most helpful to just talk about, like, strengths and challenges more globally. Yeah. I remember I was having a lot of trouble connecting with a teammate at one of the first jobs I had back when I was in my early twenties.

And I was telling Courtney about it, and she's like, he's he's probably autistic just based on, you know, what I was explaining, about how he behaved around me.

And then she said, well, find out, like, one of his, like, mutual interests and connect with Node deeply on that mutual interest. Yeah. And instead of, like, doing anything other than that, I just started talking about the thing he liked. And then, like, next thing you know, he's he's my buddy. You know? And it was like, oh, I just needed to understand that a little bit more. But, thankfully, I had you. Otherwise, I would have been like, this guy's such a a jerk to me. I don't understand why. Right. And it's because I was, like, messing up his systems and, like, the way he liked to work.

What are the other other tells? You know? You're working in a job besides who you react. Like, how do you know someone might have autism? I'm just joking.

I I'm smiling. I don't get the joke, but I'm smiling.

It's it's a it's a JavaScript framework that I I use that Scott hates.

Oh, I see. Okay. It's a very, like, comprehensive process. I do these evaluations, so I'm very skilled at, like, looking for the markers.

But Yeah. It is a very comprehensive process, and I don't think, like, anyone off the street should, like, certainly be diagnosing people. Right? And that's, like, a big movement I see with, like, teenagers and young adults Oh, yeah. Diagnosing themselves. Yeah. I get a lot of young girls who are, like, coming to me, and they're like, I think I'm autistic. And it's like as we do more digging, it's like, well, no. You're just really anxious, and you're looking for something else. And so many things can mirror autism too. Like, anxiety can, ADHD. So you do have to be careful with that.

But just generally speaking, things that you're looking for are social and communication challenges.

Right? So difficulties with, like, having good friendships or, like, having, like, a back and forth in conversations. A lot of times, it's centered around, like, what they wanna talk about or what their interests are, and it's hard to do, like, that perspective taking of what might someone else wanna talk about or I should ask them about their day. Right? Again, this is on a spectrum, but, those things are challenging.

Being able to, like, pick up on social cues.

And a lot of it's, like, subtleties. Like, if someone's being sarcastic, they might interpret that as, like, either they totally missed it or they've gone, like, the other extreme sometimes. Like, oh, they're being a jerk, or I'm gonna take it literally.

Mhmm. Right? So a lot of kids get, like, teased or picked on, because they're taking some of these things literally. Yeah. Right? And then, you know, they're a target for bullying. I hit that all the time,

especially on, like, on social I Node like, I hit this on social media all the time Wes, like, I have jokes and sarcasm and, like like like, very niche jokes.

And a lot of times, people don't get them at all, and they get very upset. And you have the at first, it's like, this person JS being a jerk, but then you realize, oh, they probably aren't understanding the sarcasm behind all of that. And then it's it's also compounded when things are people don't necessarily have English as their first language.

Oh, yeah. Definitely.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of nuance in, like, sarcasm and communication that neurotypical people tend to take for granted. Yeah. Right? Because you're not sitting down and teaching people, like, this is how you look at someone in the eye when you talk. This is how you use gestures.

You Node, those things are not taught. They're modeled. Right? So we we do that, and then kids pick up on them over time. But kids on the spectrum are not necessarily, like, picking up on those things. So it's harder for them to develop those skills, and they have their own, like, pathway that they're following. So using gestures, being able to, like, point to things or, like, connect other people to, like, where they wanna go. Like, look at that over there. Like, as an adult, like, you pick up on that, but you see delays in that for kids.

And maybe sometimes they're over relying on explaining things Vercel, but not using, like, all these hand gestures like I'm using, to help with their communication. So sometimes you see, like, challenges there. And then when they were kids, a lot of times, kids, skip over, like, the imaginative play, and they just go, like, straight into, like, role playing, like, scenes that they've seen in movies or, like, they play, like, the same thing over and over again or, like, with parts of things. So there's, like, components of, like, imagination and, like, that modeling piece that are missed.

But generally, you're seeing, I think, in adults, difficulties with perspective taking the kind of, like, the the awkwardness, like, physically and maybe, verbally as well as, like, changes in, like, tone of voice and things like that. And then the other piece of it is having, like, restricted interests or, like, repetitive behaviors.

So things like, having, like, really narrow interests that you have, like, an extreme depth of knowledge about or being, like, really rigid and, like, only wanting to do things, like, a certain way or your way or having trouble just, like, adapting and being flexible when things change. Mhmm. I think those are the biggest things that you see in adults as well as, like, sensory sensitivities.

And sometimes for adults, that can be, like, being overstimulated and, like, crowded or loud or busy environments, and needing, like, time away to themselves or getting, like, overly agitated and upset. So those are, like, tells that you might see. And people that have ADHD

often struggle with some of these things. I was gonna Sanity, there's so many overlaps, like, because I have, like, weird sensory stuff. Yes. Like, I definitely I can't I can't listen to people chew. Musa mesophonia.

Yeah. Musa phonia. People are eating on a podcast. I, like, shut it off immediately. But, like, too many loud noises over time, like, can definitely get me, like, really out of sorts. Yeah. It's interesting. It well, the more I learn JS, like, the the collection of different things that, you know, I experience, They're all connected in different ways, and like you said, on a spectrum of various aspects here. This person wrote in saying, I suspect I have ADHD and dyslexia.

In The US, what is the best way to seek a formal diagnosis, and how do I talk to a doctor without being dismissed?

Yeah. I I think, you know, we just talked about, like, the overdiagnosing phenomenon that I'm seeing, and I do think that's present.

But I also think it's important to trust your gut and your instincts. If you feel like something's wrong, then it's worth having a conversation about.

And I know, like, for you, having the diagnosis was, like, life changing.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't get diagnosed until I Wes, what, like, 35 or something. Yeah. Recently. Yeah. Which I think we all knew.

But I I you know, especially dyslexia, the only person who clocked dyslexia for me was a teacher in high school. I had one teacher being like, hey. Have you ever gotten tested for dyslexia? Because, I've noticed these patterns in all of the the papers you've turned in. And at that point, I was just like, Node. I don't I don't no. I'm not dyslexic. And I didn't know nothing about any of this stuff, so I just blew it off.

And sure enough, like, you know, over the course of time, it's like you understand more and more. But through understanding, you know, myself through Courtney, like, just amount of things in life that have been present for me the entire time, whether that was in school or beyond.

And just clear how Bos on the, the way that I act in in general that, we knew that I I was probably, you know, somebody who had ADHD.

And so it was like, okay. Well, now let's get a diagnosis because then maybe we can look into, you know, augmenting that with medication and see, how that can can help me, if it can. Mhmm. And what did we do? We found a

psychiatrist by now. Yeah. Yeah. So I I think I mean, you could go a couple of different routes in The US. And, Wes, I'd love to hear what happens in Canada too. But you could talk to your primary care physician and say, hey. I'm wondering if I have, this was ADHD and dyslexia. So I'm wondering if I have ADHD.

I'd love to see someone or get a referral to be tested for that. And sometimes, like, the primary care can handle it there if they have a good understanding of ADHD.

But, usually, they're referring you to a psychiatrist because they have more in-depth knowledge of ADHD.

The psychiatrist can't diagnose dyslexia necessarily.

For that, you would need to see a psychologist.

So someone like me, you would go through, like, Psychology Today or ask your primary care for a referral for a psychologist who does adult testing and specializes in ADHD and dyslexia.

Some places do take insurance, but it ranges, you know, anywhere from, like, 1,500 up. What they do is they will put you through a series of tests. A lot of times, they'll do, like, an IQ test.

They'll look at your academic skills, and then they'll look more specifically at skills that apply to reading, so, like, phonological processing and oral reading. So they'll do all that testing.

And then for ADHD, they sometimes they'll ask for, like, old child report cards because you have to show that it's been present since or before the age of 12. Mhmm. So that's really important too. It's not like you've lived your life and all of a sudden at 21. Yeah. Yeah. You have ADHD. Something else is going on. Right? Whether you're anxious, you've had trauma, you know, you've spent too much time with 50 tabs, you know, whatever it is.

Or or what currently, I have, six AI agents working, simultaneously as a a problem here. Right. Can we share the results of my IQ test? Because I did have you did my IQ test. I don't have your results. I just know, like, generally.

He, like Wes, he did not have an actual IQ because he's still, like, all over the place.

Like, this is very fitting for him. His visual spatial skills so, like, if you imagine Tetris or, like, puzzles, right, putting together things, we're, like, in the ninety eighth percentile. So this dude can, like, bag groceries if you've never seen it. I can pack the trunk. Let's just say that. Yeah.

Can figure I just throw stuff in the bag.

He's got it down, but his memory is terrible.

It's terrible. Yeah. So you don't have an IQ at all? Like, you're undefined? Well, so

yeah. Because because you have to show there has to be this is getting technical, but, like, a certain amount of point difference is, like, in the range of 25 points, something like that, between, like, your highest and lowest Scott. And his was, like, a 50 difference.

So so

an IQ would be an average of extremes, so therefore, it would be valid. I think that was very present in my ACT scores as well when Yeah. Yeah. I got, like, a, you know, high thirties on math and did well on science, but got low low numbers on the

English and reading parts. Yeah. And, well, often when you see that split again, this is getting technical, but that's a sign to me of, like, a neurodiverse learning profile, whether it's a learning disability, ADHD, or both, and that clearly applies for you. But, getting back to that other question, so you you wanna do, like, a thorough evaluation with a psychiatrist or a psychologist, especially if you're wondering about both.

And then from there, you know, you can take that information and consider either therapy for, like, ADHD or, medication, which I know has been helpful.

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Yeah. I I'm I'm on I'm on, ADHD meds as of, like, a year and a half ago. And for me personally, it has been life changing in regards to accomplishing tasks because I wouldn't be able to, like, sit down and accomplish a task. I'm, on my phone. I'm over here. I'm over here. I'm over here. I'm doing this. I'm standing up, whatever.

And it it, like, has allowed me to really dial in on things for sure.

And I was a little unsure about it, but it it, like, it was my choice, and I I made that choice. And, man, it has greatly improved my life. So Yeah. And what it also helps with is emotion regulation too. I don't think people, like, understand, like, the correlation between, like,

getting, like, overly angry or overly worried or sad that comes with these neurodiverse learning profiles like ADHD or, autism, where you can go from, like, zero to 60 really quickly. Not everyone does this, but it does happen, and you just get overly upset or overly mad. Yeah. You're irritated as hell. Treat that down. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you can't, like, cope with it because it just kinda, like, takes over that, like, prefrontal cortex, which, like, up here is, like, the main area that's affected by ADHD.

It's kind of, like, all consuming, and it's harder for you to, like, deal with life's challenges and problems. So medication can be one tool to help with that. Yeah. Or mindfulness, which I keep trying to get you to do. I think Mindfulness. Scott

on. He's got time for mindfulness. What does mindfulness look like? It's thinking

about something kind of like relaxing your brain, and you can do, like, a guided meditation or visualization.

So I use, like, Headspace or Calm. Those are two really popular apps where, like, a calm voice will walk you through, like, a meditation. And, really, you're just trying to focus on the present and mostly your breathing.

Right? So you can do different things like progressive muscle relaxation Wes you're, like, tightening and loosening, like, different parts of your body at a time, but it's really, like, being focused. And if you catch your brain, like, going somewhere else and thinking about something else, then you just, like, bring it back to center. And it's hard because everyone's brain goes this way, and it's it's just that concept of, like, actively treating your brain to stay present. Yeah.

Cool. Did you have to do a computer test for your ADHD diagnosis, Wes?

What? Like like, use a Word document?

No. I had to, like, press a key or something whenever a specific letter flashed on the screen. Oh. And I was telling Courtney, like, I'm a competitive person, so I really wanted I really wanted to do a good job on it. Like, she asked me how it went. I was like, oh, this test was so stupid long, and, like, I was doing really well on it until about, like, halfway through, and I just, like, couldn't keep up or I couldn't. And she was just like, yeah. That's what the test is for. Like, that is like like Node. That's that's the Conners continuous performance test. And it's designed to be, like, fourteen minutes long and to be frustrating because letters flash at different intervals. And sometimes the intervals are long, and so you lose interest. So it's looking at, like, impulsivity

or, like, lack of sustained attention. Getting so mad at it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mine mine was more just, like like, questions about how you approach different situations and how I interact with coworkers and and how I what what I have trouble with. Right? Like, I didn't I didn't take my meds today, and I'm just sitting here. I would love to do a, like, a time lapse of me sitting at my desk a day I'm on meds and not. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll go upstairs, like, the 30 times and, like, moving around and and, like, having all these monitors at once is maybe not a good idea, but, yeah, it's I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do a a time lapse of Yeah. Yeah. Time. Around bopping around.

Okay. Let's get into the next section here. We have some questions on productivity and that kind of thing. Why do so many developers tie their self worth to commit history? I'll explain that to you. Or shift features? How do we build more resilient self esteem, especially in fields that measure output? Does journaling help? So, commit history is like every time you you're saving and writing code, you commit that code. It's like basically committing it to record.

It's like your Snapchat score for being a developer.

Snapchat? What year is this?

People still use Snapchat? Oh my gosh. You're getting old. You're getting old, Scott.

Snapchat's huge still. They do. The teens do still use Snapchat. Yeah. Insane. They do. Okay. It's true. But, yeah, everybody in this whole

software world puts so much worth on shipping. You know? Like, actually putting

make writing code and getting it out there. Yeah. So I I really like this concept of it's called acceptance and commitment therapy. I've been trying to use it just for my own, like, general well-being. But it's this idea it's well, it's a therapeutic approach.

It includes, like, mindfulness components along with, like, values.

I'm being really simplistic here again, but I think it's a good idea to have a concept of, like, what things in life do you value the most? Like, what describes you and your interest and your motivation for, like, success or happiness? You however you wanna define that the most. And you can search for it's it's just ACT, so ACT values, and it gives you, like, a whole list of different values. But, you know, my values are things like family, being loyal to my friends, being supportive, just being, like, kind to others. You know? So I have a good understanding of, like, what my values are.

And anytime that something bothers me, it's helpful to stop and, like, pull yourself back from it and think, like, does this, like, concern align with the things that are most important to me, my values? I in theory. If it doesn't, you should let it go.

Mhmm. If it does, then you wanna, like, problem solve that and work on it. Right? So if you're a developer, is is one of your values what would you call this? Like, productivity Yeah. Or work output? Yeah. Output. Yeah. So is that one of your values? And if it is, then, you know, maybe it is worth thinking about. But if it's not, then you have to let it go because you can't let every little thing, like, define you and consume your time. It burns you out, and it wears you out. You know? So it's helpful to have that understanding. Of course, things like journaling can help. But I think, you know, having resilient self esteem, and having, like, that act mindset can be really helpful to, like, think about, does this align with the life that I see for myself and my values? Does it not? Right? And there's a couple ways you can, like, let it go. So they have this concept of, like, the visualization component of maybe you put the word or the thing that you're imagining on a boat, and it goes down a stream and, like, off in the distance, and you can no longer see it, and it's gone. Right? You could, like, crumple it up, throw it in the trash. You could set it on fire. Ideally, not something, like, dramatic or, like, anger inducing.

Or we've talked about you can give it, like, a name. Yeah. Like Oh, yeah. Some kind of name that's like, oh, that's just like Judge Judy Joe speaking to me. Right? I'm gonna, like Giving your name a step. And let it go. Right? Because you do you have this, like, inner critic or, like, voice in your head that's always is trying to protect you from danger.

Right? And danger can be anything like physical or, like, perceived danger and hits to your self esteem or or being vulnerable, those types of things, like emotional damage is dangerous. Right? And so your ego, your inner critic's always trying to protect you from that. It's helpful to externalize it and think about, like, is this, like, my inner critic? Is this something that I actually value, or is this not worth my time? Right? And then trying that practice of letting it go, which is hard. And then the third step is being kind to yourself. Right? I don't think we do enough self compassion, like myself included. We can be so hard on ourselves. And maybe, Wes, this doesn't apply to you because Wes seem to be nice. Nothing fazes you.

But for the rest of us, like, being self compassionate is is so important. Just saying like, hey.

This thing about productivity, it bothers you because you care about doing a good job at your work. Right? You Node, it's okay that you're having a hard time, and we can try to work on this or we can do better next time or whatever it is. Right? But just being kind to yourself and trying to let go of what you can and having a good understanding of what's really important to you and what you should really spend your energy on. Yeah. Can I also just say,

just like Instagram or any of the things that people might compare themselves to, developers on Twitter are lying? They are lying to you about how much they do, what they're doing, you know, their output.

People are doing that for engagement. And so, like, comparing yourselves to people who are just, like, bragging about the stuff they accomplish or whatever, like, it's it's hard to do that because you do see so much of it. Like, people output all and there's, obviously, there's there's 10 x they call them 10 x developers out there who are doing, 10 times the work. But, like, the reality is is most people are just doing a good job at their job. Yeah. Like, if that's if that's what you, like, wanna be doing, like, that's that's a okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful to know. Yeah. Don't fall for the engagement, babe. Next question we have here is is overtime

ever worth it? I worked overtime on a government project that could literally save lives.

I still feel guilt over lost time with my family. Is there ever such thing as justified overwork?

I wanna hear from you too because, I mean, I have been in professions where I'm, like, working overtime, but never to, like, save lives. Like so

I'm interested. Closer to saving lives than we are. I'll say that. Oh, man. Are you kidding?

The one wrong use effect could end it for Sanity. So don't don't sell yourself short there, Scott. I I have thoughts on this. I think that there are times in your life and in your career where going absolutely nuts, going all in, working, like, weekends, working evenings, just being consumed by it. I think that that is fine. And I've had several times in my career where I either just wanted I couldn't peel myself away from it, or I simply just, like I was just learning so much, and I had so much work to do. Those are very formative times in your career, and I think that it's it's good to have those things at some point. That it is not good to have that absolutely all the time. Right? Like, if you look. Go look at my commit history. I am very proud that my has a blank Sunday and a blank Saturday. Right? And then then I have solid green in the middle because I'm an absolute machine, coding. Right? So Scott's showing his his Git commit history right here as well.

It's a three d printed Git commit history, and you will see on this thing so many Saturdays and Sundays, completely nothing. There's a nice little couple of, valleys in here where I took a week off here and there. So, yes, there are some days that are high, but,

yeah. It's beautiful. Every day. Somebody gave me a mug with my commit history on it once, and it it you can clearly see where one of my children was born. And I'm I'm really proud of that that I I stopped and took time off for that. So, like, yeah. I I think is overtime ever worth it? Absolutely.

Especially for saving lives. But simply, if you're just trying to get better at your career, there are times in your career where you can go absolutely whole hog.

And and you might look back at that and be like, good. Like, you shouldn't have these hard and fast rules of, like, I need to always spend this time working and always spend this time with my family, which JS, like, a rule that I have. Right? Like, nine to five, I I code. Sometimes I dip outside of it. Sometimes I go to conferences and whatnot. But that's just where I am in my in my life. When I was young Yeah. I was coding freaking twelve hours a day, working ten to ten, and just just going whole hog on it. And that was I look back at that very fond time in my life and my career as well. Yeah. There was times that going whole hog,

was advantageous for me as well. Like, we had somebody, like, get let go because they had a bad review, and then we had to pick up their Slack, and there Wes executives. And the coworker and I spent, like, two full days, like like, forty eight hours straight of, like, rebuilding this project from scratch because there was a Ford Motor Company executives coming in to see it. And, like, we knocked it out of the Yarn. And because of that, it basically made us, like, safe for the rest of, like, our employment there. It was like, alright. You guys saved the day.

And because of that so, like, very worth it in my mind to, like, absolutely destroy yourself for that that period of time to get that work done. But when I had Vercel up tutorials as my full business, it was, like, happening all the time. It was it was crushing me. Yeah. Yeah.

So since doing Syntax full time, it's been nice to be able to shut it off, and not have to worry about that. Like, is the business going to collapse while you are away?

Right. Yeah. I think it's so helpful to have, like, the boundaries and the time that you're dedicated to work, as you said, Wes. Like, being in a flow state, obviously, Sanity helpful, advantageous, provide, like, life satisfaction and things like that, but you can't be in a state of, like, constant overwork forever. Like, that will lead to burnout and other things like depression, and you'll see deterioration of, like, you know, your family, you know, dynamic and your hobbies and just your whole life quality. Yeah. So it is it's important to, like, really think about, like, how long can I sustain this for and then, like, at what point do I need to, like, reevaluate and reconsider what I'm doing?

I have a question for you. And this is something that's a topic that a lot of people talk about, and I just wanna get your thoughts on it. Yeah.

AI as a mental health tool, how do you feel about using LLMs like CHAT GBT JS mental health support or diagnostics, like, as a professional?

Yeah. I I would imagine we use it in a similar way that you all use it.

Like, so we JS therapists, diagnosticians, whomever, we're using it as, like, a guide or, you know, they tell us to use the word copilot, you know, to double check your work, reconsider things that, like, maybe you hadn't or, you know, other ideas, solutions, etcetera, but never in replace of the work that you're doing. It just helps you to become, like, a better therapist, Wes it frees up things that would take a lot of time and nuance, and allows you to do other more important work like spending time with clients and developing connections. Special

models or tools, right, that have, like,

HIPAA or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So, Node, you're you're not using chat Wes. That's like a whole industry, Wes, that we don't know anything about. Yeah. I was on a call this morning with some folks from Google talking about, like, local models. And I was like, like, health care and law are, like, two areas that are interesting there. Yeah. So, like, when I use the different show, but Bastion.

Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't think it's as great as chat GPT. Obviously, it probably doesn't have as much training and Yeah. I don't know how that works. The technical aspect. If you would probably set your house on fire. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I I think it's good as a tool, but it can't ever replace the need for human connection. Right? And that's, like, the whole thing in therapy. That's why you go, right, is to have human connection, is to have compassion from another trained human being who can, like, understand and provide support and empathy, who can pick up on, like, the things that you're not saying. Like, ChatGPT, you're typing in a prompt, but Yeah. Therapists are looking for things that, like, you are not disclosing. And they're gently pulling it out of you.

You're guiding the ship, but they're steering it, right, and helping you to get to where you need to be and also, like, challenging you on the things that maybe you don't wanna do or the areas you don't wanna go, because that's where the growth and development happens. And ChatGPT is not doing that. No. Node it's a people pleaser. It's a user for sure. See how that would be hard for you. It's very agreeable. Exactly.

Yeah. And it's agreeable for sure. And, like, the number one not number one, probably, like, the meme right now in the web developer space is that if it gets something wrong and you tell it, like, Node. You got that wrong or whatever, because you're absolutely right. And no matter what you say, even if you're providing it, like, fake information or whatever, it's always responding, oh, well, you're absolutely right. So, like, it is going to, like, ultimately confirm biases and, like yeah.

Yep. Yeah. I I just think we need human connection more than ever, and that's just going to continue more and more as we rely more on AI and how that transforms throughout life. But we are social creatures, and you need that for happiness and life satisfaction. Yeah. And you just sent me something on Instagram

yesterday that was, like, talking about in the age of AI, like, human will become more valuable because the technology has become, so available and cheaper and ubiquitous or whatever that, like, the value of human will rise. And, like, that goes a Scott. Like, on Monday, the episode that I recorded with doctor Sarah Berg, she said her sick pick was Japanese pottery because it was imperfect.

And, like, she works so much with AI that, like, imperfection was, like, really charming to her in that way. So Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking about that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very poignant.

Okay. So in that same regard, like, AI topic, my wife is a nurse studying to be a therapist. With AI's rise, will we need more therapists or

fewer? It's like more or fewer. What's the future of mental health care in an AI world? Oh, man. Some of the code that I have to fix that this thing kicked out, I think we're gonna need more therapists. Yeah. It's a it is funny to think about, like, the, parallels here between developers and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Between

developers and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it's similar, but, I mean, I I think the answer is similar to what we just talked about. You know? I think we'll need more. I think there is a loneliness epidemic. I think that's been identified, at least in The United States. And I just see that getting worse, especially as we rely on more virtual tools, you know, for things like support. So I think, you know, good people are always needed in professions and especially in a, like, human driven profession.

I don't see that going away. And and who knows, you know, what it will look like over time or how AI will develop it if it will have a face and a persona.

I don't Node. But it's just the feeling of, like, coldness and there's, like, a lack of soul and, like, true empathy.

I don't see that ever replacing, like, an actual connection with, like, a a therapist who understands you and is trained. So I would encourage her to still go for that.

Yeah. It is interesting.

I think once you have the curtain pulled back in how LLMs work, I think that removes a lot of the I could use this as a tool to help my mental health. Because, like, you you know, like, how it's producing the text that it's giving you. Like, it's not like it doesn't have all the answers. You know? It's not like it's a prediction machine. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's math. Like, it's Yeah. It's mathematically

trying to guess what the next word will be given the inputs. It's a pure function, which is wild, and it's not just this magic box.

It is Wes. But I don't think like, I didn't understand how it worked. Yeah. And most people don't. Yeah. No. You all do, but most people don't. I can see you falling prey to, like, that trap of relying on it as as a girlfriend or, like, a therapist or whatever, and that's a whole another conversation. But, you know, I do think having, like, an understanding of how the tech works is really helpful. Yeah. That there's a podcast from Wondery, Flesh and Code, that talks about a AI,

like, girlfriend or boyfriend app. And it is like, man, it's a wild podcast to listen to, but also, like, they changed the model ever so slightly, and everybody was having, like, panic attacks. And there are people having, like, real mental health crisis because, like, my wife in some cases is now a completely different person overnight. And it's like, oh, man. Oh, god. Oh, yeah. It it's a it's a tough listen, but, Wes they it's hard to stick your head in the sand about these days, I guess. Yeah. Alright. We got one more question here. JS this from a professional athlete? As a developer who's a pro athlete, I'm scared of burnout but find it impossible to mentally shut down. I've tried all the standard tricks. Nothing works. What now? So is this this person JS a developer and a pro athlete. What's interesting is that, like, I have seen a number of pro athletes recently in the news for being web developers.

So if you're out there and you're you're actually a pro athlete in one of the major leagues, hit us up. I wanna I wanna hear about that. But let's talk about the burnout piece. How do you mentally shut down? Like, how do you how do you how do you handle that?

Yeah. I I can imagine it's hard because you probably have, like, adrenaline, like, you know, more frequently going through your body. Mhmm. And it is it's hard if that has escalated to bring that back down.

And I don't know, like, what type of developer they are, but don't you have, like, periods of, like, adrenaline or frustration or, like

Let me tell you. When I'm getting when I'm deep into solving a problem Yeah. Like, and I have not solved that problem, I find it so hard to go to sleep.

I'm, like, so, like, ugh.

So consumed by it. Yeah.

Consumed by it. I was having an issue, Wes, where, like, a URL, in a CloudFlare worker wasn't updating, and I'm like, I'm going through my ENV variables. They're all set correctly. I'm going through my code base. There's no mention of this string of this u Wes is this being stuck? I've cleared the caches, and I'm like, rebuilt and redeployed, like, eight times. And I was just like, this is something I can solve.

This is a stupid bug. Like, where is this coming from? And I couldn't I was so angry about it. I I just could not fall asleep. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it seems like there's a lot of parallels there. I personally think having, like, a cool down or calm down routine at the end of the day just signals to your brain, like, it's time to relax and shut off, like, work mode.

How do you enforce that? Because I that's what I can't do. Yeah. Well, it's it's hard. I mean, you have to be, like, diligent.

Can somebody else force that? Yeah. Yeah. Like So Deno. I have friends that have, like, timers, like, just a standard timer on their phone for, like, every little thing, and there's a text reminder on there. So at 07:00, it will ring and say, like, wind down time or whatever it is. You know? So you could have something as simple as that. Snooze.

Well well, then that's your choice, you know, and nothing's gonna change. You gotta actually work at this stuff. Like, it's Right. What? You get Sanity just be automatic. The diagnosis,

but then, like, if you wanna get better, you gotta put in the time. Right? And, like, I'm not just saying this to Scott, but, like, I think sometimes people just use their diagnosis as an excuse, for not being able to do things. And, like, you you still have to work to get better in life at every day. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. It's helpful to know how to change, but it's not going to actually make you change

having a label. Yeah. So doing things like taking a hot bath with, like, Epsom Scott. I know you like doing that. Big fan of the hot bath with Epsom salt. I could imagine if you're a pro athlete too. Like, that would help calm your body, your Vercel, and just help you relax. Doing, like, all the standard you're better at this than I am. Like, the phone the what is it? The dark mode on your phone? Yeah.

The like, the sepia mode or whatever. Yeah. CJ turns his phone to be black and white, which makes him wanna use it less Oh. Which I think is pretty, I think that's a pretty cool idea. Yeah. Yeah. If if I was rich, I would put a a sauna in our house, and I would go Yeah. Sauna would be great. Yes. Yeah. I wanna I wanna do that so bad. We have a spa in our house that would be perfect for a sauna, and I've been watching

sauna YouTube videos.

Node years. We have a bathroom in the basement that does nobody's ever using it. No one's ever using it. So it's already kind of, like, got Yeah. Or whatever. Steam shower maybe in there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We could just turn that into a sauna.

Moisture is hard.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But doing things like a bath, stretching, actively decompressing, listening to calm music, maybe putting your electronics away when you can't access them. I know that's hard for you. Yep. I mean, I think they're, like, classic explanations for a reason. Right? They're classic tools for a reason because they work. That's the hard part about are you actually using them? Hard thing is, is it? A lot of the times, there's no shortcuts, you know, with stuff. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So for you, stretching, the sauna or the bath, doing yoga,

doing things that don't require a screen, like reading a book. Going to dance or, warp hitting the gym. Yeah. That's a really important one is, like, don't just replace it with things.

Because a lot of times, the answers to, like, doing these things is don't do x, y, and z. But, like, sometimes the answer is, like, well, if you if you pick up salsa dancing, you're not gonna be on your phone as much or, you know Yeah. Right. Just replace it. Go to the gym or whatever.

I think going to the gym JS, for me, like At night? Not, like, necessarily at night, but I like to go to the gym after work. And that can that can be the bridge for me that's, like, pulls me away from my computer. That is, of course, if I Sanity to not bring my computer into the gym.

Well, you gotta babysit the agents in between sets. Right.

Oh, this is yeah. It's a problem.

It's a problem.

But, yeah, I I like that idea, Wes, of swapping it out for a replacement behavior. I thought this question was for at night. I didn't realize it was Oh, I think it is for at night. Okay. Yeah. Node. Deno. I'm yeah.

Let's head into sick picks and shameless plugs. What do you got for us today?

Yeah. So I've been on, like, a a health kick in the kitchen, and I read this article about, like, microplastics being everywhere. And I had no idea, like, in your tea bags, in, like, obviously, plastic containers, in, like, plastic spice containers.

And I've been, like, really thinking about that and swapping out some of our kitchen things. So there's some good, Benco glass containers at Costco that I really like. Tupperware? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But swapping it out for, like, a good glass container, we swapped out any, like, plastic, like a utensil, like a spatula, like the black spatula. The black plastic ones. Yeah. Bad. Yeah.

So we swapped that out for metal.

And then I was, like, looking at tea bags and spice things. Also, we got a really good colander that goes, like, over the sink, and it expands to, like, the width of your sink.

It's pretty clutch for, like especially if you have kids. I was, like, washing grapes in there and stuff, and then you don't have to, like we don't have an island, unfortunately. So island. You, like, carry the colander, like, over to the other Node, and the water gets everywhere. It's just a pain. So stuff that gets on the floor between the the oven and the sink or whatever. It's, like, outrageous. Yeah. It's not great. So we've been thinking more intentionally about, like, the kitchen, especially with, like, the holiday season coming up. We're hosting Thanksgiving this year, you know, so just doing those, like, little swaps.

Beautiful. I like it. Is there anything you'd like to plug while you're here as well? Do you got anything to plug? No. No.

Nothing to plug? Okay. Let's just get that. Cool. Well, thank you, so much, Courtney. It's like, I don't know.

I talk to you every day, so it's always, it's always something easy for me to be, like, get these answers from you all the time, but I always forget that, you know, how how amazing it is to be able to, you know, share this with the audience. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your your And, again, folks, if you have any additional questions, drop them in. She lives with me, so she can come back anytime.

Beautiful.

Alright. Thanks again. Poos.

You have to give us a piece, Courtney.

Oh,

okay. Say, puce.

There we go.

Peace. There we go.